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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Terrapin, what about the world through the portal? That's clearly not Xen and I'd have a really hard time buying that it's anywhere present-day Earth. When I asked Adam if I could post the lux aeterna link he said:
Quote:
You can see how important this particular section of plot was - it was the first thing I built for metastasis_3...

One thing I'm not sure about is whether or not that world (through the portal) is what Minerva is referring to as her world. It may be, but she never explicitly says so. She seems to use "our" meaning human or earth ("our species", "our oceans") but she also seems to be distinct about her world vs. our world ("you may even have a fighting chance at saving our worlds"). As I said before this suggested to me that her world might be a future (or past?) Earth, or as Yar Kramer suggested a different dimension or parallel universe or something like that. Though is that the world through the portal, or perhaps it's home to her "adopted forefathers" which may be someone else altogether. Obviously popular theory on this matter has parallel's to the forerunners in Halo, and I'm sure other science fiction works. I'm starting to think this may be too simplistic or derivative for Adam?

(oh, while I'm rambling, lux aeterna is Latin for eternal light. There is obviously a huge amount of Greek/Roman mythology references as well as Roman language (Latin). Makes me wonder if there's something more than metaphor to it all? I think it was suggested before that Minerva really is THE Minerva, though she did say this time that her "mythology" was a bit rusty so probably not. But still, I wonder..)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:10 am 
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Ah, so the world beyond the portal would be... Mount Olympus?

But enough on that topic - this forum is for what Minerva is, as we have a thread regarding the world beyond the portal. In any case, I really doubt that the Minerva, i.e. the goddess of Greek mythology, would sound so human, not to mention the fact that she obviously was once human. As far as I can tell, my theory still works. It may not be right, but I truly think we're on the right track by placing Minerva as an artificially evolved post-human.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:34 am 
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What I meant was that you didn't account for why that world seems so personally important to Minerva. (not to mention she did say it was her home "once, maybe.")

And maybe I wasn't clear on this, but I didn't mean I think Minerva is the Roman God, just that there may be some reason for all the specific mythological metaphors. I guess it reminds me of the segment of that book, Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson that Baffled had us read awhile ago that apparently Adam said was an influence on Minerva.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:01 am 
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See my post in the "what is the world beyond the portal" thread, I figured that would be the appropriate place to post ideas regarding that area.

In summary, that world held/holds the secret to how Minerva became what she is - it's a place where we can all go, to ascend, if you will, and become semi- or non-physical, post-human, technology based beings like her. In doing so, thus immortalizing humanity, she would repent for her earlier crimes (she did call herself a war criminal, remember?).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:05 am 
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Yar Kramer wrote:
The thing I like about this kind of discussion is the sheer volume of ... raw data available. And to make any kind of sense of it, you need to process it -- how should we interpret this, how literal should we take that, how do we resolve this ambiguity?

At the same time, with each installment, we're given just enough information to make us think we understand more, one way or the other, while still raising more questions -- and the answers (and some of the questions) still depend on the same wonderful fun that is interpretation.


Hehe, makes me think we should make a MINERVA bible :)

Ace wrote:
I guess it reminds me of the segment of that book, Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson that Baffled had us read awhile ago that apparently Adam said was an influence on Minerva.


God, loved that book, need to reread it... But yeah, the MINERVA moniker has to be some sort of representation of what she is... that being our shield and giver of wisdom


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:43 am 
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Mercer wrote:
Hehe, makes me think we should make a MINERVA bible :)


Well it's probably been suggested before to put up a sticky somewhere with known facts. Unfortunately I think if we boiled things down to what we know for sure, we'd realize that all that's left is the titles.txt files from Metastasis and Someplace Else.

And I'm glad to hear someone else has actually read the Cryptonomicon, even if it's been awhile. Here's where Baffled linked to that section before:
http://www.hylobatidae.org/minerva/blog ... nt_id_2440
I think the idea was that Minerva=Athena from this passage. Seems to me to indicate that our Minerva is meant to have the same "..internal-representation-dubbed-Athena-by-the-ancient-Greeks" (see my comment below his.) If you can spot any other influences from that book, feel free to speculate...

(oh, and as to your screenshots on the other thread, I agree the juxtaposition is suggestive.)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:46 am 
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Well, to take a quote from SE:
Quote:
It took mankind sixty years to get from general
relativity to glimpsing this kind of science. I doubt you appreciate it -
you seem to prefer the stains of alien blood to the subtleties of physics.

I played a large part in mankind's discovery of this, although few would
like to admit it.

So she at least claims to be the giver of wisdom. But then again, Minerva is very nearly narcissistic (how's that for an allusion?), so "a large part" could be anything, ranging from the Gordon-style task of plugging things in and following instructions, to vital research, and everything in between.

As for a Minerva bible, I was planning on making a repository of all quotes, pages, images, and other relevant data with interpretations, as well as all theories and conjecture, but I'd probably just manage to make a huge mess of things by missing a few critical pieces of data. But by all means, if someone is up to the challenge, I'd love to help out.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:50 am 
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Ace wrote:
(oh, and as to your screenshots on the other thread, I agree the juxtaposition is suggestive.)


Indeed...


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 Post subject: We're trying too hard!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:24 pm 
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Adam says we have basically been given the answer to our question, but have been looking beyond the mark. She tells us who and what she is. According to the interview, we seem to be finding some ambiguity in her words that was not intended and have gone the opposite direction.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:46 pm 
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I'm going to toss out a wild and unfounded theory that I will not attempt to back up with evidence.

Minerva is an agent of a resistance movement within the original Combine race, who are against the "Combine way" and wish to free races that have fallen under the Combine's control.

_________________
Rather than offer you the illusion of free choice, I will take the liberty of choosing for you...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:51 pm 
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Maybe she's really the G-Man :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:14 am 
Someone, somewhere quoted the text that appears after the laser-beam-o-death thing strikes and said it was the HEV suit rebooting.
Personally I thought it was the semi-computerised brain of the dead post-human grunt Minerva re-actualised rebooting - the dude you play in other words. Much like the terminators "mind" reboots in T2.

Also, when she says, "You were a traitor to our species, but also a traitor to the Combine - so just hope you've redeemed yourself in the eyes of whomever, or whatever, you may still hold dear". I don't think the "our species" bit is species specific, I believe it's purely a reference to whatever it is an entity from any species ends up as after the Combine have had their wicked way.
So by "our species" she means Combine/post-Combine, not necessarily Human/post-Human.

I reckon Minerva is basically like The Major [Kusinagi] from the Ghost in a Shell jobbies. Minerva was once a physical entity (species unknown, and definitely not from the world seen through the portal) but ended up inside a machine through Combine experimentation, stripped of memory (by extension individuality and emotion). A biological processor (brain) with an eidetic memory (a hard drive) would be extremely useful/powerful tool I'd imagine, and very Combinian. Much like the grunt you play (post-human) she is post-something and through some kind of accident or whatever became self-aware... again. It names itself Minerva after all. Minerva knows it used to be something else, but probably knows even less about its origins than you do of yours. At least you can tell you used to be human by looking in a mirror or by checking out the bodies hanging from the walls and comparing them to your own. Minerva has no biological body or memory of it, so how can it ever know - like when it says that the world through the portal may once have been its "home, maybe..."

The themes that I took away from Minerva: Metastasis, be them right or wrong, intended or not, were those of morality and justice (two subjective ideas) and of what it is to be sentient - something you have to be in order to dream up and consider ideas such as morality and justice. However sentience and morality do not go hand in hand, but it is your sense of morality that ends up defining you as a being. You can be self-aware and have no ideas of morality eg: a baby.

Up until the laser-beam-o'-death you're nothing more than one of the grunts hanging on the wall; an empty vessel, stripped of memory, waiting to be filled with orders. After you're accidental survival due to the Combine technology implanted in you (nicely ironic), you're no longer fighting because you're told to, you're in it for yourself. GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE! Up until that point you were so willing to run into the next gun fight (as Minerva points out) which could so easily spell your end, how can you possible lay claim the level of subjective thought required for sentience?
Your death is a re-birth. The moment you finally understand the difference between life and death and its importance, and Minerva experiences this to. You gain a sense of your own mortality at the one moment there's nothing you can do about it. You are about to die, and this is what Minerva is "truly sorry" about because Minerva, who came to that same realisation/epiphany (but luckily isn't about to be vaporised), will destroy what should have been be a glorious moment for you - the moment you regain your humanity.

However it's been a while since I played Minerva and someone could, and probably will quote some forgotten text that brings my theory tumbling down... feel free to do so.

I would love a response from the man himself...

[edit: typos]


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:43 am 
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Meocene wrote:
Someone, somewhere quoted the text that appears after the laser-beam-o-death thing strikes and said it was the HEV suit rebooting.
Personally I thought it was the semi-computerised brain of the dead post-human grunt Minerva re-actualised rebooting - the dude you play in other words. Much like the terminator's "mind" reboots in T2.


You can get the full text of the messages in Steam\steamapps\SourceMods\metastasis\scripts\titles.txt

Code:
*** BMRF: HEV-OS v4.3a -- Hardware Node ID: 00:14:51:ed:35:36 ***


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:22 pm 
lol - regardless, that doesn't negate my theory completely, thank god.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:53 pm 
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There are some other interesting little nuggets which I'm only noticing now I'm going over the script...

Minerva wrote:
***INCOMING MESSAGE*** 2009-10-15.19:54:18

Just get a fucking move on, okay?

I don't know how long I can hold off Overwatch reinforcements down on
your island, and it won't be long until we're both tagged as undesirable
elements.

So be warned, I'd sooner fully vaporise both you and this satellite than
be discovered by your former Combine masters. I know they can reach
me now
, and that makes me afraid.

***END MESSAGE***


Maybe I missed something - other than the obvious explanation that something has happened to her outside of our knowledge. Why does she know they can reach her? Does she mean in a physical or in an abstract way? Is she referring to the portal?

On another note;
HEV suit wrote:
[kernel interrupt - 00:00:01 01/01/1970 - spurious console input]
--[log contains unformatted data]
$ofut&re nokpa't no pres-nt no li2e no deaH# no wSrldddddddddd


This is pretty obviously another nod to our old friend, Marathon. At the end of many of the "trash terminals" in the game with random code and secret messages, and mysterious historical information feeds from unknown locales...

Marathon wrote:
<Unauthorized access-alarm 2521->
<Security Breached 50-h<291.7.577.456>->

*00010104A80600A2F0C4EBA182E4A80584F2E00BC876700FF46202EFE4*3A
EFE4A2F0C2F074EBA1DC672FFB280504F6700079d4202EFE4E6000079*E700
12D40FE52722AB2866610202EFE5253AEFE52101B4880
^^Fire and @3DC39 aspects of the theory are as follows: each
society has some controlling force or forces which decide its
direction, but the relationships in society are arbitrary-
humanity can relate to money, machines, neighbors, anything
really; %6582@1


... And so on, you always got:

Marathon wrote:
<Spurious Interrupt- Breach Disabled>
<Further Access Denied>

<Breach Location Undetermined>


Which is a subtle way of saying that one of the AIs onboard is screwing with you, feeding you information and cutting off the bits it doesn't want you to know. And if one of them's screwing with you in that way, well, it's gotta be Durandal; one of Minerva's primary inspirations.


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