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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:02 pm 
"genocidal half-wit with the attention span of a goldfish."

Don't know why you would call our character that. We are not genocidal at all. To be a genocidal maniac requires one seriously warped personality. And as we all know, our character has absolutely no personality at all. It was stripped out of him by the Combine. You could go as far as to say our character is not even male or female any more.

I honestly think that some people are taking some of Minerva's messages a little too literally and missing the subtext. For example:

"If we remain true to the standard meaning of the language, only an entity born or designed on Earth or who sees Earth as her home (for whatever reason) would write "our" oceans. That would make her either human or an Earth-designed A.I."

Using precise, dictionary definitions is clearly going to lead to misinterpretation. By focusing in on individual words or sections we'll miss the over meaning of the sentence.
Minerva clearly interprets the action of the player wading out to kill themselves. she even says so: "I have invested far to much time for you to end it all here". She thinks you're trying to kill yourself.
You've suddenly found yourself in to a highly hostile environment. You're receiving msgs from god knows who and god knows how, and you've got a lot of strange looking men shooting at you. If that isn't a traumatic situation to suddenly wake up in i don't know what is. On top of that, tactically, it's a stupid thing to do (in reality).
Who here can walk or run through water as fast as they can on land?

Regarding her intelligence, i'm only really assuming her intellect is far greater, and tbh there is evidence to suggest her intellect isn't that colossal, she just has access to a lot of analytical machinery.
For example, as you step further down in to the structure there is that message in which she says the subatomic detritus of this structure is remarkable similar to that found in and around a citadel, but with a few, subtle differences. It isn't until further exploration that she is able to discern why there are these differences. However she is still able to analyse the data in real time. Which suggests to me a far superior intellect and mental processing capacity (which could be due to her augmentations i suppose).

"The posters in the thread were generally basing their theories on the M:M story."

Same here; assumption, conjecture, gut instinct... what's the difference?

The plurality of places one could call "home" doesn't unmake a particular place's status as "home." In other words, the fact the Minerva could call home several planets doesn't eliminate Earth as her first home.

You know what i meant!

Also, Valve's universe/Half Life mythos is what the Half-Life series tell us they are. I'm confused by your distinction.

OK, what i mean is, if you were to remove the series of events and the characters from the universe that Valve has created i.e a universe being ruined by a unnatural force known as the Combine, what would you be left with? Valves universe and the Combine, that's what. And a lot of untold stories.
Iain M Banks has done something very similar. Anyone hear ever heard of his "Culture" novels. They are a series of (exceptional good) stories in which the tales you read about are all played out in the same universe. The individual books however are all entirely separate from each other. You do not need to have read one to fully understand the other. The thing that links them all together is the universe in which they are told and this mass conglomerate of species known as "The Culture".

You can either stick to an exegesis of existing pieces of information which are assumed to be internally consistent. Or you can chose to ignore some of the information and fill the rest of the picture with your imagination.

But this is precisely what i hope/believe Adam Foster has done. The internal consistency you speak of is Valves universe. The bits of information he has chosen to ignore is the stories Valve has told so far in said universe, namely, the Half Life saga.

"Meocene, the Old Black Mesa Incident (i.e. this) IS pretty much separated from anything Valve has produced. It's an Adam creation, as far as I know, therefore of the utmost importance for Minerva's storyline.
You shouldn't be that much disappointed, if you look it this way.
"

Actually, this is what Valve/Mark Laidlaw laid down.

"About the matter of "a friend of a f=iend" signature, I tried to check if there was any recursiveness in the misspelling of archive 4 text, but the spelling errors seems to be random."

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Instead of taking the over all meaning of the message, we're focusing in on tiny details.
Do you honestly think that it was purely an arbitrary choice by Adam Foster to replace the 'r' with an equals?
If you really wanted to do what I've been saying we should all try to avoid, and deeply analyse that sentence, as in, imagine we're sat in an English Lit class and dealing with Shakespeare, our tutor would go stark raving bonkers and probably give up on us all if we concluded that the replaced 'r' was entirely unimportant and held no meaning at all.

"Moreover, another striking feature is the great difference between archive 4 and archive 5: while in archive 4 Mrs. M seems to be in some difficulty, writing the message in a console input, with numerous mistakes, in archive 5 she is confident with the Internet"

These differences lead me to believe they have been written by two different beings, but maybe by beings of the same species - Minerva being what the Combine would consider an "improved" version, hence her affinity with interfacing, and considerable better command of the English language. This is me agreeing with part of your theories, that she was augmented by the Combine. That is something we can all agree on.

That, imo is the only indisputable conclusion we have all come to.


Last edited by Meocene on Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:02 am, edited 10 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:26 pm 
I've just had a quick flick through the half life time line i linked you all to and realised the OBMI isn't actually in there! shit...
Links please!

However this is but an atom sized dent in my armour so don't y'all start thinking you've got me! :)


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 Post subject: The new guy and his ranting...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:24 pm 
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The imprtant thing to keep in mind here is that if you are going to argue with locworks about who Minerva is, or other important plot points, you must remember that he actually knows much of this stuff directly from Adam himself, but has been sworn to secrecy. So if he come straight out and says something is this way or that, he's more likely to be right than any of the rest of us.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Meocene, the only mention of the OBMI EVER was in the Minerva Archives. It was created by Adam. I'd think that at this point Valve considers it canon (considering the popularity of the Minerva mod and the fact that they assisted in the completion of it) but it was still an original event made by the same man that created our dear friend Mrs. M (and I do say, I love the new abbreviation!)

Also, show me on bit of substantial evidence from in game or the archives that shows that Minerva is not and never has been human. And if you once again say "gut feeling", I won't except it, because all other theories were derived from physical evidence or quotes, even my far-fetched theory about the Marathon/Halo connection (which I realize now was probably just a "hats off" to a couple great series).

I apologize for seeming harsh, but it's the truth. No real evidence means that it holds no water.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:55 pm 
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ZeroMachine wrote:
... it was still an original event made by the same man that created our dear friend Mrs. M (and I do say, I love the new abbreviation!)


Now, you're making me blush under my scruffy black beard. :-)
I think "Mrs. M." was inspired by this. Adam's influence over my thinking patterns is both beneficial and pervasive.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:36 am 
no worries ZeroMachine, it's all in the spirit of debate, and in response, I've yet to see any concrete evidence that she is human.

my mum's in for some quizzing about the Dial * for... books. haven't read them myself.

edit: having re-read a few things i'm thinking i'm back to square one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:27 am 
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Meocene wrote:
...I've yet to see any concrete evidence that she is human.


I'm glad you edited that; the fact that I just listed several points of evidence in favor of this argument, although some were rather weak, demonstrating undeniable evidence of Mrs. M's humanity. Then we have locworks arguing in favor of the theory, lending great credit to an argument already practically confirmed by Adam himself! Back to square one indeed. Still, if you have any evidence beyond your own hopes and desires for parallel plot lines, we'd be happy to consider it.

Also, I detect some confusion about what the OBMI is; I'm going to go ahead and post a rough timeline, just for reference sake.
All of the below events were created by Adam, for Minerva, and thus are valid for a direct analysis of the plot.

*13 June 1974: Massive "seismic" event in Mew Mexico due to transportation (re: teleportation) experiment gone terribly wrong. THIS IS THE OBMI.

* 28 March 2002: Minerva writes her corrupted message from a Black Mesa Terminal. She seems to be in a state of melancholy - perhaps she is coming to terms with her new self.

* 1 April 2002: "Someplace Else" occurs; Minerva uses a conveniently calibrated portal to return to Earth.

* 15 October 2009: Minerva begins her plan to exact revenge on the Combine and make amends for what she has done, and what she has become. "Metastasis" occurs.

Feel free to correct factual errors.


(Oh, and the Mrs. M abbreviation? Genius. "Ladies and gentlemen, we now continue our discussion of our much conflicted opinions on the identity of {cue dramatic music}... Mrs. M.")


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:39 am 
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Sorry if it seems off topic, or if it's already been answered, but does Someplace Else take placed before or after the events of Half Life? I would assume before considering the Vorts still seem to be under control of the Nihilanth. I just wanted a perspective on when Half Life takes place, and knowing when SE takes place could help.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:50 am 
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ZeroMachine wrote:
Sorry if it seems off topic, or if it's already been answered, but does Someplace Else take placed before or after the events of Half Life? I would assume before considering the Vorts still seem to be under control of the Nihilanth. I just wanted a perspective on when Half Life takes place, and knowing when SE takes place could help.


Well, the portal presumably leads back to Black Mesa, as all other known portals we've seen in Xen do. It it took place after Half-Life 1, there would be no Black Mesa to go back to, thanks to the G-Man's efforts in Opposing Force.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Terrapin wrote:

Here is what, we can say for absolute certain:

* Minerva was human, but was involved in a teleport accident that left her very badly injured, dead, or otherwise compromised.

* Through some alien technology, she was reborn as a trans-human entity.

* Wanting to save humanity in repentance for earlier mistakes, she returns, via Xen, to Earth.

* The Forefathers offered some great level of assistance at one point.


I'd say the first and third are reasonably assumptions but not absolute certain.
But on the third. Are we certain she is here. She seems reasonably certain they can't get to her untill she sees the combine on LA.

Quote:
* The Forefathers rescued her, yet she chose to keep her Combine technology - she's a kleptomaniac, remember? - so that she could finally make a real difference.

* Not willing to allow their technology to fall into enemy hands, the Combine pursued - all Forefathers were killed, but due to the Combine technology that was now a part of her, she was able to save herself.


First of I want to say that she seems to suggest that the Forefathers where supperior to the UU and they are long gone. Have to find the quote for that one, though.
Secondly she seems concerned about the combine getting the technology on LA. She even calls attention to devices of Eschatonian power, which seem to suggest said technology is in advanced to that of the UU.
This suggest that the UU had no part in their destruction, but makes the reason she calls them her adopted Forfathers a bit enegmatic.

Quote:
Anyway, your other points; your analysis of teleport mishap terminology seems accurate. Although, if the test Gordon was in at the start of HL1 wasn't a teleportation experiment... what on earth were they doing?


A spectrometer is a devices that analyse samples (in this case a crystal, but in general all manner of molecules) using electro magnetic radiation. Most common are visible light, IR and UV. The spectrometer can measure the absorption of the radiation or the light emitted on exciting the atoms.
In short it was an analysis of the crystal.
The sample was extremely pure (without contamination and dirt) and the spectrometer was set on an 105% (if I remember correctly) output. I think one can assume that the purity of the sample (and the fact that the crystal is used for portals by the Nihilanth) and the high energy output caused "unforseen concequences".


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:27 pm 
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Meocene wrote:
edit: having re-read a few things i'm thinking i'm back to square one.


This reads like a retraction of the opinions advanced in the previous posts. Thank you, Meocene. It takes courage to admit that one is wrong, even in the anonymity of the interweb.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:21 pm 
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Berrie wrote:
Terrapin wrote:

Here is what, we can say for absolute certain:

* Minerva was human, but was involved in a teleport accident that left her very badly injured, dead, or otherwise compromised.

* Through some alien technology, she was reborn as a trans-human entity.

* Wanting to save humanity in repentance for earlier mistakes, she returns, via Xen, to Earth.

* The Forefathers offered some great level of assistance at one point.


I'd say the first and third are reasonably assumptions but not absolute certain.
But on the third. Are we certain she is here. She seems reasonably certain they can't get to her untill she sees the combine on LA.


I'm quite certain she's on Earth at the time of Metastasis. This page suggests that she has interfaced with what's left of the internet. While that by no means proves her presence directly on Earth, as she has sent messages from Xen before, we must remember that Minerva is, by her own admission, using terrestrial radio and Earth-based (although perhaps not human made) satellites. Plus, Earth was the only place she could have gone. She obviously could not operate the portal in SE herself, and the SE protagonist set it for Earth; Minerva had only one choice beyond staying in Xen until someone came to get her, and that was to go through the portal, and thus, to Earth.

You do make a good point about her concerns for the Combine getting her - she doesn't show any vulnerability until she sees the portal, and the Combine invasion of LA does seem to shake her up. This leads me, however, to Minerva's fragile emotional state at the time. In fifteen minutes, she has seen the one of the worlds she considers her home invaded, and has been forced to try to kill the only person she could truly sympathize with. She could simply be upset. Or it could be entirely unrelated to LA - the Combine may have found her on the satellite, or pinpointed her point of access to their network.

Quote:
Quote:
* The Forefathers rescued her, yet she chose to keep her Combine technology - she's a kleptomaniac, remember? - so that she could finally make a real difference.

* Not willing to allow their technology to fall into enemy hands, the Combine pursued - all Forefathers were killed, but due to the Combine technology that was now a part of her, she was able to save herself.


First of I want to say that she seems to suggest that the Forefathers where supperior to the UU and they are long gone. Have to find the quote for that one, though.
Secondly she seems concerned about the combine getting the technology on LA. She even calls attention to devices of Eschatonian power, which seem to suggest said technology is in advanced to that of the UU.
This suggest that the UU had no part in their destruction, but makes the reason she calls them her adopted Forfathers a bit enegmatic.


Well, whatever is in LA, and whoever the Forefathers were, Minerva values them and their legacy above all else. Also, I agree that the Combine may not have killed the Forefathers directly, but remember, they have other influences. For example, the Nihilanth was not a member of the Combine (not so far as I know, anyway), but still wreaked havoc. Or the Forefathers could have been long dead, for eons, but their technology remains, and is so powerful, Minerva will do anything to keep it out of Combine hands. We don't know much of anything about LA or the Forefathers at this point, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, your other points; your analysis of teleport mishap terminology seems accurate. Although, if the test Gordon was in at the start of HL1 wasn't a teleportation experiment... what on earth were they doing?


A spectrometer is a devices that analyse samples (in this case a crystal, but in general all manner of molecules) using electro magnetic radiation. Most common are visible light, IR and UV. The spectrometer can measure the absorption of the radiation or the light emitted on exciting the atoms.
In short it was an analysis of the crystal.
The sample was extremely pure (without contamination and dirt) and the spectrometer was set on an 105% (if I remember correctly) output. I think one can assume that the purity of the sample (and the fact that the crystal is used for portals by the Nihilanth) and the high energy output caused "unforseen concequences".


Just remember that that particular sample was "provided" by the G-Man. He is ultimately responsible for the Black Mesa Incident, and thus, for the Combine invasion, although we have no idea what he had to gain from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who (or what) is Minerva?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:04 pm 
locworks, my good man. just because i think i may be wrong in some places, does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that i think any one else is right! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Who (or what) is Minerva?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:53 pm 
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Meocene wrote:
locworks, my good man. just because i think i may be wrong in some places, does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that i think any one else is right! :)

In case you are wondering about the deletion, it's not about the spelling... Please send the complaints (if any) and the petitions in private messages only. Apologies to everyone for taking part in the feeding of that particular troll.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:50 pm 
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Terrapin wrote:



Just remember that that particular sample was "provided" by the G-Man. He is ultimately responsible for the Black Mesa Incident, and thus, for the Combine invasion, although we have no idea what he had to gain from it.



Perhaps it wasn't what he wanted to gain, but more the CHANCE he needed to gain it. Of course, I allude to G-Man simply "using" Gordon, and the whole of earth for that matter, to defeat, maybe even seek revenge on the Combine


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